acius
Fledgling
Posts: 90
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Post by acius on Mar 29, 2015 6:25:02 GMT -5
I feel like I've been extremely vocal about Sks and our current state in the game right now. We just had a really positive change with the fix to decrepit skin and the subsequent buff it received. What do you guys think of our current state, what abilities would you like to see changed? Whats good/bad/etc? Share a wishlist, etc. Dialogue only helps us all in the end.
That being said, there are a couple things I would like to see in the future.
Buffs to Harm Touch - HT as it stands is a little lack luster. My dots and spears hit harder, its basically just an instant nuke on a long cooldown. I use it for snap threat and that's about it. When I played on live if HT was up I used it and I always cackled with glee at how fun it was to use that button. Here I mostly ignore it unless I'm about to die and making a last ditch effort. (Applies to leech touch as well, heals less than my max level lifetap or at least seems to).
Leech Curse - Leech Curse is our most powerful cool down, it can keep you alive in the worst situations. The only issue I have with it as it stands is the very long cooldown (over an hour). On a server where boss mobs spawn every 30 minutes and the average tacvi clear for a lot of us is less than an hour, I end up saving leech curse just incase I need to use it rather than using it as a defensive cooldown.
General dps quality of life - Right now the majority of our dps really seems to come from our dots however, at later levels our dots don't actually seem to stick on much. I personally just load all three ranks of the highest level duration bond line and use those as my goto dots simply because they're the least often resisted. I also have multiple dot clickies I use to supplement. Basically this means that anything that has high resists increases the difficulty curb for us.
Duration taps - Seem to get minimum health back for duration taps. 200 or so a tick. This is more of a wishlist item as I think it would probably be over powered with even a fraction of spell power/healing power applied.. worth talking about though
The changes to decrepit skin went a long way to evening out a lot of the issues I personally had with heavy hitters in tacvi, being able to have a little more control over a fight was a huge boon, I like it a lot - definitely improved us in the long run.
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Post by teflawn on Mar 29, 2015 18:58:18 GMT -5
one quick fix to help us in our over all tankablity might be to swap our shield block aa to also work with our 2haders(similar to staff block for monks) out as most of the end game SKs are going with 2handslashing (i am also thinking ahead to the fact that our epics are all 2 handers and the 2.0 are supposed to be hands down our best weapon)
i am with you on the harm touch I kept my aa maxed hoping at some point a big bang would kick in that never happened (this was meant to be a pivotal burst dps in a raid I can remember being on raids with the call going out HT now and you could watch the boss drop) so a real boost say put it up where a wizard nuke crits usable every 10min or so would be nice
i would say that yes our buff to Decrepit Skin is nice but i would love to see the spell stay up and just fire off with a 15second proc then fade with a 30second timer before it can fire agen
partly as we are very spell dependent for our utility when tanking have 2 jolts up some dots a dd or 2 tap and duration tap dose not leave much room for another spell gem that is on an invisible 45second timer i would love to see it last as long as our other combat abilities but have a fixed proc rate of once every 45seconds as it is i get it off once and that is about it for a fight
i am with you on our defensive discs having the reuse timer put more in line with what the warriors get seems much more in keeping with the rate of play here where you hit raid boss after raid boss with a limited pool of tanks bc you are in at best a full group and at worst duoing defensive discs were designed with the idea of a rotation of tanks (awesome to see work on a huge raid but not the way things work here) this should apply to all classes letting people fire off discs once a fight seems game friendly with out being over powered (think of all the monks and rogues you could save)
long story short let us tank as well as warrior or make us a beefy DPS class that can patch heal our selves and deal with adds and say alive for 15-25% of a boss fight if the "real" tank goes down
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acius
Fledgling
Posts: 90
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Post by acius on Mar 30, 2015 2:02:36 GMT -5
I read an interesting reply in an EQ next thread on reddit a couple days ago and it brought back some interesting perspective for me. It's really easy to look back on MMOs I've played in the last 10 years and reflect on the concept of "class balance" without remembering that EQ didn't really have class balance. Some classes were inherently better thats just the way it was. However, every class was unique and those unique play styles are what attracted people to play those classes. Its easy to lose sight of that fact but worth mentioning.
I don't think we're in a bad spot tanking wise. A lot of the frustration I personally had came directly from comparing myself with a warrior tank, that was a mistake on my part and I dont think we should be balanced around that comparison now that I've thought about it. I'm perfectly find with taking a back seat to being a meat shield. We're plenty powerful as is. When I accepted that maybe I can't duo shit and invited other people with healers a long to things I ended up doing a lot better which really put just how useful/powerful we are into perspect for me.
As I said before I think the new skin was designed pretty well for the fact that it was a quick fix. I'm okay with having an ohshit button on my spell bar and believe me its very powerful. Today I pulled about 120 or so mobs in KT, threw up skin and laughed(not really) as two wizards burned everything around me - no one died(I ended with 3% health), I kept agro(sort of). As it stands I only use the AoE taunt spell on 2 bosses and even then its not really needed as much as its just easy to use (you can probably scrap using them for the most part as long as you're taunting on cd). Even when someone out threats me, I have HT for snap threat and they can back off for a second until I reagro) if all your dots are rolling people are going to have a hard time out threating you.
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trixi
Fledgling
Posts: 61
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Post by trixi on Mar 30, 2015 5:48:01 GMT -5
That is an awesome sentiment and I would wholeheartedly support it ... if we weren't on a solo/duo server I agree though trying to balance a class is counterproductive to the enjoyment of the game. I do however think that some element of our tanking could be improved, though not our toughness. I would be completely happy to sacrifice some sturdiness for the ability to lock down aggro on multiple/swarms of mobs, which would conversely allow us to heal with a bot/box a bit more without them pulling heal aggro and dying in a couple of hits. Perhaps tweak Voice of Thule so that instead of it being a +hate on attack , it could be a +hate to attackers? Single target we are able to hold aggro without drama, but from what i have seen there are not many single pulls in the later stages. I'd be happy for warriors to assume the mantle of main tank (take larger hits easier, and lock down single targets) and for us to take the offtank role (not so good with the large hits but can lock down multiple mobs). Just a thought. Oh and change Leech Touch to be an AE lifetap. Or just an AE lifetap spell. Think that's it ...
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Post by Gamoril on Apr 1, 2015 2:19:00 GMT -5
I'm pretty happy with how SKs are on this server right now. I'd love for our cast lifetaps to be more effective at healing. I understand the reluctance of the devs to make it better due to us becoming overpowered, but I think a balance can be struck where the healing component is enough to keep us alive while chain casting it but not enough damage to win a fight. It's that stalemate of casting time vs DPS time that I think can be tuned to give us a bit more survivability. At the moment my lifetaps aren't really even worth casting because the weapon procs are more efficient in DPS vs heal. Soul carapace could definitely be better and the epic clicky certainly doesn't compare to it's usefulness on live, but in saying that, I don't think many of the other epic clickies are used much. Maybe cleric and shm, I don't really know.
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acius
Fledgling
Posts: 90
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Post by acius on Apr 1, 2015 5:54:54 GMT -5
Personally I've found the best way to use lifetaps are as a supplemental heal. I honestly barely use them outside of txevu/tacvi but when I'm fighting a boss I know is going to hit me hard I'll cast them on Aci while casting heals on my shaman for a little extra umph.
I agree, they do seem lackluster on the healing side. I know in later expansions we got more AAs to increase spell crit chance and exeptional healing from life tap, maybe we'll see some of those in future content?
I disagree about the epic click for the most part. I've used it pretty much the same way I used it on live and had pretty much the same experience with it. You also have to keep in mind that Lich Sting is a bit more powerful than Reaper Strike.
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acius
Fledgling
Posts: 90
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Post by acius on Apr 1, 2015 5:55:07 GMT -5
Double post, stupid slow work computer.
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Post by Gamoril on Apr 2, 2015 4:50:15 GMT -5
Personally I've found the best way to use lifetaps are as a supplemental heal. I honestly barely use them outside of txevu/tacvi but when I'm fighting a boss I know is going to hit me hard I'll cast them on Aci while casting heals on my shaman for a little extra umph. I agree, they do seem lackluster on the healing side. I know in later expansions we got more AAs to increase spell crit chance and exeptional healing from life tap, maybe we'll see some of those in future content? I disagree about the epic click for the most part. I've used it pretty much the same way I used it on live and had pretty much the same experience with it. You also have to keep in mind that Lich Sting is a bit more powerful than Reaper Strike. You're right about the epic clicky. I'm comparing it to 2.0 on live. I never really used the 1.5 clicky because I had something better when I got it and didn't have it for long. Hopefully we see more of the lifetap AAs soon. I rarely ever use them because the cast time isn't worth the lost procs and damage. I just cast Wailing Three for bit of a HP boost. Even if they leave lifetaps as is, perhaps they could make Leech Touch better. It's an encounter saving cooldown to have on the big fights when a heal isn't going to land in time and you've had a bad round of hits.
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Post by Vinlar on Apr 2, 2015 9:07:41 GMT -5
When I have time I'll be making a sk and running it with my normal chars to compare against wars. I've been working 66 hour weeks the past few weeks, but I hope to accomplish before the end of the week (Sunday). In doing this I hope to gain better insight where they stand and what they need.
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trixi
Fledgling
Posts: 61
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Post by trixi on Apr 2, 2015 11:37:19 GMT -5
Tbh I'm not entirely sure we need a great deal. Would be interesting to get your perspective on it though. Personally I am against class balances in general, as they tend to dumb things down a lot and a lot of the flavour of a class goes out the window. For me a SK is an evil, life stealing, 2h weapon wielding monster. Melting faces with dark magic and lopping heads off on the backswing. If any changes are made id hope they keep the flavour of the class in mind, steer towards differentiation as opposed to standardisation. Just my 2c
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Post by teflawn on Apr 2, 2015 16:20:07 GMT -5
my thought is balance with in position aka DPS should be highest dps so rogue zerker and the like tanks should all be able to tank so pally sk war should be able to do the same job but let people play what they want i realize its not that strait forward but on a small server you need to at least have some balance at the moment i cant run tacvi without a warrior to tank it for me that's a bit frustrating it is making me lean in the direction of getting my bard flagged so i can go as a dps and help more in some of the fights
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Post by Vinlar on Apr 2, 2015 17:02:42 GMT -5
Preliminary tests are showing SKs as pretty sturdy (no real surprise I guess). The damage taken was close to a warriors of equal gear, a bit spikier. Their tanking felt pretty solid for a hybrid, dps felt a bit on the low side. I might be in favor of adding some DPS to SKs. Give me some ideas on how you would like to see this happen.
I'll do some more comparisons in the coming days.
EDIT - please note I'm not promising anything and any changes will need to get full approval from the other devs. I do intend to be a vocal and active GM here, and want everyone to enjoy this server as much as I have over the past 4+ months.
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Post by teflawn on Apr 2, 2015 20:24:01 GMT -5
i would hands down love to see our Harm Touch beefed up to a once a fight big boom that was supposed to be part of the SK sheek o no not the harm touch as far as real pds goes our dots even with the new resist stick are not that great on bosses and almost all of our spells are slow to cast i realise its been stated taht we will be gimped spell damage wise to keep the necros happy :-p but but many times it dose not really seem worth it to cast our spells in many fights as if you have your weapon procs going off the time you spend slowly casting dots and life taps is just not real damage i save them for when i am rooted or know i will die if i jump back in so i back off dot and hope for a few to stick same with taps to heal up then back into the fight swinging all the dot clickies i have cast faster and hit just about as hard another thought dps wise is something i have posed before about 2handed damage bonuses if you look at the three 2handers that come out of tacvi you can see the disparity in delay vs damage bonus i hope this can get fixed across the board SK damage 155 delay 27 dmg bon 17 paladin damage 148 + 5magic Delay 23 dmg bon 17 berserker 163 delay 29 dmg bon 48
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Post by Gamoril on Apr 2, 2015 20:51:24 GMT -5
Preliminary tests are showing SKs as pretty sturdy (no real surprise I guess). The damage taken was close to a warriors of equal gear, a bit spikier. Their tanking felt pretty solid for a hybrid, dps felt a bit on the low side. I might be in favor of adding some DPS to SKs. Give me some ideas on how you would like to see this happen. I'll do some more comparisons in the coming days. EDIT - please note I'm not promising anything and any changes will need to get full approval from the other devs. I do intend to be a vocal and active GM here, and want everyone to enjoy this server as much as I have over the past 4+ months. Thanks for this comment Vinlar. It's great to see GMs reading class boards and opening lines of communication rather than dictating terms. I personally don't expect SKs to be able to take hits like a warrior as they were never really intended to. The reason I play an SK over a warrior is because of the amount of tools available to make the game more interesting and more fun. I'd love to see things like AAs and spells that are more heavily relied on for Live play improved here so that we can get the same sort of playing experience, using all of our tools to even the playing field a bit with the warrior. In saying that my friend plays a Pal and they seem to be worse off in many ways than SKs are. Things I personally would suggest are looked at for tanking: Leech Touch AA - I think this should heal for much more than it does currently to be useful Theft of Life AAs - Should give a greater chance for exceptional heals Soul Abrasion AAs - Not sure if Soul Abrasion is working correctly Decrepit Skin spell - The recent change has been very helpful but I would like to see this as a 5 minute buff rather than fading as soon as it is activated Lifetap spells - Could be better
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trixi
Fledgling
Posts: 61
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Post by trixi on Apr 2, 2015 23:18:16 GMT -5
I'd keep the touches with the same punch as they have now, but drastically reduce the cooldown timers - they should be used maybe once in an encounter, not once in an entire instance... perhaps a 5min cd? Or if the cooldown remains they should pack enough punch to drop end game bosses down to less than half their health, i mean these things only get used once in an instance so their use should have a significant if not game changing impact when they are used. I would really like to see AE crowd control stepped up, reducing/removing the cooldown on vilify, or some kind of quick reuse AE dot maybe? or an AE lifetap? Maybe a hate aura that causes aggro in nearby mobs (given we are evil and exude that nasty around us).
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