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Post by Genesis on May 16, 2015 23:56:34 GMT -5
While a dps increase for casters isn't necessarily warranted, I would think that perhaps a mitigation boost could be justifiable, given the extremely different ac and defense calculations for casters (specifically the silkies) than the rest of the classes. Perhaps giving them the ability to be able to main tank raid targets might be too much, but I'm sure they would surely appreciate - and not become too OP - if they were given the ability to mass pull and survive zones the same way other classes (usually tanks, to be fair) can. (Since acknowledging mostly tanks, this mitigation buff could probably be also fairly warranted for other classes besides silkies)I'm not sure how you could possibly do this without making casters godlike. Their low mitigation is the trade-off for having such high and flexible DPS. There is always a balance, the harder you hit a mob, the easier you die. As I've already stated, I can clear PoFire in a single spell with my Wizard, how much more insane do you want them to be? Should I be able to do the same thing in F2?
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Post by atathus on May 17, 2015 0:09:10 GMT -5
While a dps increase for casters isn't necessarily warranted, I would think that perhaps a mitigation boost could be justifiable, given the extremely different ac and defense calculations for casters (specifically the silkies) than the rest of the classes. Perhaps giving them the ability to be able to main tank raid targets might be too much, but I'm sure they would surely appreciate - and not become too OP - if they were given the ability to mass pull and survive zones the same way other classes (usually tanks, to be fair) can. (Since acknowledging mostly tanks, this mitigation buff could probably be also fairly warranted for other classes besides silkies)I'm not sure how you could possibly do this without making casters godlike. Their low mitigation is the trade-off for having such high and flexible DPS. There is always a balance, the harder you hit a mob, the easier you die. As I've already stated, I can clear PoFire in a single spell with my Wizard, how much more insane do you want them to be? Should I be able to do the same thing in F2? I misread your original post - I thought that you said that you had to pull 2 to 3 times in PoFire due to the named, when you had said that you have to do 2-3 casts to kill them. My apologies Question: I haven't seen the full capabilities of the max imperium's fury aug. At max, does it give melee potential to do equal dps to casters, or are casters still far ahead. If melee are put equal, then that might raise the issue of whether we should still be talking about "trade offs" if melee were given the ability to eliminate those trade offs.
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Post by b33tlejuice on May 17, 2015 0:13:00 GMT -5
While a dps increase for casters isn't necessarily warranted, I would think that perhaps a mitigation boost could be justifiable, given the extremely different ac and defense calculations for casters (specifically the silkies) than the rest of the classes. Perhaps giving them the ability to be able to main tank raid targets might be too much, but I'm sure they would surely appreciate - and not become too OP - if they were given the ability to mass pull and survive zones the same way other classes (usually tanks, to be fair) can. (Since acknowledging mostly tanks, this mitigation buff could probably be also fairly warranted for other classes besides silkies) thanks for the laugh atathus, who woulda thought tanks can, well, you know, tank!! it's a trade off, u get the dps of a caster and take the damage of one, or you get to be a tank and do less dps. There is a way to pull things (including most of pofire), caster's have been using this tactic since god knows when, it's called KITING!!! I have no problems on any of my caster classes, infact i find it easier than my main (monk) as everything dies soooooooooo damn fast
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Post by Genesis on May 17, 2015 0:35:06 GMT -5
I haven't done any parsing, and I haven't done the rank 3 item yet so I can't say.
What I can say is that even with Abyss daggers and Tacvi gear, my Rogue is nowhere NEAR the potential damage output of my Wizard, who is lesser geared. When I do SolC, I use Paladin/Wizard, and I'm able to pull significant numbers of mobs on my Paladin and AOE them down very, very quickly on my Wizard. When I bring my Rogue, I'm killing one mob at a time at a much slower rate.
The trade-off is that my Rogue is much better at fighting individual, harder mobs than my Wizard is.
For soloing, the Wizard can grind much faster, but the Rogue can kill harder mobs. If casters were to receive a DPS increase, it would tip the scales even more. Even if, and that's a big if, melee DPS classes had their DPS brought up to the same standard as caster DPS, they still have a couple of significant disadvantages to take into account.
I posted my previous essay to try and explain why comparing is pointless but I'll make a couple of specific observations so you can see what I mean.
Mobs with high mitigation will cripple alpha damage, whereas spell damage will remain unaffected. Here, you can put your caster/melee and alpha/proc discussions.
Mobs with high resistances will cripple spell damage, whereas alpha damage will remain unaffected. Again, caster/melee alpha/proc.
Mobs that move a lot will cripple melee classes, whereas ranged classes can stand just about anywhere and remain equally effective. Here, you'll find your melee/ranged discussions.
Mobs that have high AOE damage output, such as rampage, will destroy melee classes, whereas ranged classes can stand out of ranged and maintain DPS. Again, melee/ranged.
Pet classes cause double the amount of trouble for balancing because they not only have both alpha and spell damage in their arsenal, but they also have split their DPS output between caster and pet. If pet dies, DPS output is reduced, as is functionality. How do you balance this against classes that are 100% spell damage, like Wizards, who also have increased functionality due to them not having a pet?
Balancing tanks with melee DPS and caster DPS is a hard task. It's not just a matter of durability vs damage output, but you have to take into account healing ability, mobility, ranged ability, how much do mechanics affect the class, how fiddly are they to play... The list is endless.
I think you'll find that, in general, casters have a far better time as far as DPS goes. They are affected less by mechanics, they do more damage, and they are far easier to play. The sacrifice they make is that they die much more easily too, if they are caught out. Melee characters can cop a bit more punishment, but they cop it more frequently too.
So even if, and it's a big if, melee DPS is brought into the same range as caster DPS, it still does not dictate that casters should receive something in return. There are far too many variables to take into consideration to issue a blanket judgement such as that.
I hope it's clear, I understand where you're coming from as far as trying to obtain balance, but it's far more difficult than just upping the DPS of one group and upping the defenses of another.
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Post by adonhiram on May 17, 2015 2:24:53 GMT -5
Pet classes cause double the amount of trouble for balancing because they not only have both alpha and spell damage in their arsenal, but they also have split their DPS output between caster and pet. If pet dies, DPS output is reduced, as is functionality. I globally agree with you, and once again I didn't want to start the Everflame festival about class balancing, really sorry if I did. Just to add my 2 cp to your quoted sentence, this applies to hybrids, maybe to necs who have more survival toons, but not to mages. If pet dies, mage dies. Point. Of course I introduce a nuance with Imperium mechanics, FD for all, Doppelgaenger clicky, press #zone lobby hotkey etc., but the general scheme is true, mages have no other tools if pet dies, except the Raging Servant line of spells which does not work here. As a side note, if one of our server rulers reads this, I'll allow to remind my request about having a look to see if it is possible to fix the Rancorous Servant spell, which would really be great for mages. If there is only one thing to do for them, it's this. No tanking super AA, no imperium caster clicky, no ability to aoe the zone like a wizard, just give me my gargoyle back please And I will be the happiest of all mages and agree to all what our melee comrades ask.
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